The Shame of Ireland
We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. John Riordan, who is a deputy director of audit. I am now dealing with the agenda. No apologies have been recorded today.
Are the minutes of the meetings of 18 and 20 October 2016 agreed? Agreed.
I want to raise a point arising from the minutes. We dealt with the Social Insurance Fund and the large issue of outstanding insolvency and redundancy payments last week when officials from the Department of Social Protection were before the committee. I propose that we write to the Secretary General of the Department to get a breakdown of the companies or businesses that owe money to the Department and ascertain how many of them are still registered with the Companies Registration Office. I accept there will be difficulties in the case of companies that have gone bust and no longer exist because it will be impossible to collect the funds. I suggest we should seek the details of companies that are still trading after being restructured and are profitable, but owe money to the Exchequer in respect of statutory redundancy payments that have not been repaid. We know we will not get the names of the individual companies but we want to get an analysis of the companies that are still alive and could possibly be pursued to get some of the almost €500 million that is still outstanding. We will send that letter and will get a reply back in due course. I just wanted to raise that issue arising from the minutes.
The next item is correspondence received. This morning we received the opening statement from today's witnesses. Is it agreed to note that? Agreed. With regard to correspondence from Accounting Officers, correspondence has been received from NAMA regarding the release of communications with Lazard on the loan sale process as requested by the committee.
We will consider the matter in a moment as part of the work programme because Lazard will attend soon.
The next item of correspondence is 114B(i) and (ii), a letter received from Siún Ní Raghallaigh, chairperson of the board of TG4 regarding contract details of the director general as identified in the 2015 financial statements. This issue appears to be resolved with a new director general in place in accordance with legislation. Is it agreed to note it? Agreed.
Item 115B is correspondence received from NAMA in follow up to a request for information. It will be added to our folder on Project Eagle correspondence. NAMA was here on 29 September. We wrote to it the following week seeking correspondence and item 115B is the reply. We sent NAMA a subsequent letter a week later for further information. The reply will be received today and the members will get it when it is received during the course of the day.
The next item is 102C, an e-mail from Deputy David Cullinane enclosing correspondence from Nua Healthcare regarding concerns about public sector tendering for residential disability services. We deferred the matter last week due to the absence of the Deputy. Does he wish to comment? No. I propose that we write to the HSE on the matter and the Office of Government Procurement for a response, and come back to it when we get a reply. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The next item is 116C, an e-mail from Ms Fay Buckle, clerk to the Welsh Public Accounts Committee, regarding the hosting of an inaugural public accounts network meeting on 10 June 2017. If members are interested in attending, please contact the secretariat.
The next item is 117C, correspondence received from an individual regarding this committee's discussion on Caranua on the presentation of its accounts and governance questions. The letter refers to comments made by the Comptroller and Auditor General but it is unclear to what the individual is referring. I propose that we ask the Clerk to write to the individual to seek clarity. We will come back to the matter. We will consider Caranua as part of our work programme but we will not put a date on it. I propose that we consider including it in our work programme. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The next item is 118C, correspondence received from Deputy Mick Wallace that includes documents released under freedom of information pertaining to NAMA's interactions with Lazard. I appreciate the correspondence that he sent to us for our information. Is it agreed to note it and include it in our files? Agreed.
The next item is 119C, an e-mail received from Mason Hayes & Curran on behalf of Cerberus confirming attendance of representatives of Cerberus before the committee. We have added them to the schedule and agreed the date of 17 November for Cerberus to attend here in public session. Earlier, I mentioned that Lazard has agreed to attend as well and I will come to that when we discuss the work programme.
We have received a very considerable amount of documentation from the HSE on our hearings on sections 38 and 39 organisations. With the committee's agreement, I will ask the Clerk to look at the correspondence before circulation. It is very voluminous and we want to get it in a manner that will be helpful to us. Following a little bit of work on it by the secretariat, it will be sent to us. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The next item is reports, statements and accounts of bodies received since the last meeting. Members can see them on their screens. Bord Bia has a clear audit account, Waterways has a clear audit account and the Credit Union Restructuring Board, ReBo, has a clear audit account.
The next item is the Health Service Executive's patient private property accounts. There is a statement here from the Comptroller and Auditor General that states, "The statement of internal financial control discloses weaknesses in the HSE's control over the management of patient private property accounts and the steps taken by the HSE to resolve these". I note that there appears to be a turnover of €83 million, which is a big amount of funds. Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General would like to comment.
I Have Sent the Following Email
Thank you Rob for the email below. I have passed it on to the secretariat of the PAC as I am no longer the clerk to that Committee. Kieran Lenihan is the clerk to the Committee now.
Ted Mc Enery
Clerk to the Committee on Budgetary Oversight
"Rob. Northall" ---20/10/2016 17:51:20---Dear Mr. McEnery It is my understanding that you are the Clerk to the Public Accounts Committee.
From: "Rob. Northall" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: 20/10/2016 17:51
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Rob well Done! Minister Quinn, Minister O'Sullivan and now Minister Bruton, all Ministers of the Department of Education with responsibilities for the former Redress Board now know as Caranua. We have contacted all three Ministers and have all received the same answer from each of them its not within their remit - but who's remit is it if not the Minister who has the power through legislation to have a review of Caranua at anytime. PAC would have the authority to have Caranua answer financial questions on the spending of public monies, we as the survivors of this trust need answers from those running this fund as to why so many survivors are being refused help from the very fund set up to help those same people. These people running Caranua seem to be able to speak to the survivors as if we are nothing making many feel like they are begging for a few crumbs from the head table. I will stand up against those who are against me, I will be strong and will not be broken by the very people hired to help me , I will never allow another person to hurt me again, if they want to fight survivors again bring it on!!
I Have to say it Beggars Belief and Shows what Utter Contempt the Dail hold Survivors in!
If you read the Email Sent to the Public Account Committee it raise at Least 8 Serious Questions!
What do I Get in Response?
Firstly NO RESPONSE From Sean Fleming!
Secondly this Email which Frankly Beggars Belief!!
I Am Speechless!
Dear Mr. Northall,
I refer to your correspondence to the Public Accounts Committee on 20th October 2016.
The Committee discussed this correspondence at its meeting on the 25th October 2016 (extract below)
The next item is 117C, correspondence received from an individual regarding this committee's discussion on Caranua on the presentation of its accounts and governance questions. The letter refers to comments made by the Comptroller and Auditor General but it is unclear to what the individual is referring. I propose that we ask the Clerk to write to the individual to seek clarity. We will come back to the matter. We will consider Caranua as part of our work programme but we will not put a date on it. I propose that we consider including it in our work programme. Is that agreed? Agreed
The Committee are now seeking clarity as regards the "erroneous comments made by Mr. Seamus McCarthy".
Apologies for the delay in getting this information to you
With kind regards
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Sorry Guys been to busy to reply sooner but sent this today
Its fair to say that using a simple management tool and a calculator that this runaway Train could have been predicted Months and Months ago!
A Straight line Graph shows a Steady Trend!
A Graph that takes a rapid upturn is less easy to predict
As you can see a Competent Manager would have predicted this early on and gone back to the Minister asking for more funds!
The Steepest part of the Graph is December 2014 to February 2015, this would have rung alarm bells for me!
So now they want to Cap Applicants could they have seen this coming?
As you can see the answer is a resounding Yes!
All Data is Taken from Caranua's own Website!
Caranua is Currently Preying on vulnerable Survivor by getting them to sign a New Contract Restricting their entitlement to Funds!
Not According to Need
They are using the payment of a Funeral as an Inducement Furniture White Goods
The Latter goes against he ethos that Only Service Provider can benefit from the Fund
Survivors Not Being allowed "Property" is the word in the Act
I am deeply disappointed the rest of my Correspondence has gone unnoted!
I apologies for my late reply but wanted to undertake more analysis of Caranua but Hospital admissions and Caring Duties have prohibited this