The Shame of Ireland
I have Just Sent the Following Email to
I would be grateful if you would let me know your Groups Current Position on the Statutory Trust Fund?
I would Like your Permission to post your Reply to the Shame of Ireland so that Members can Understand
Thank You in Advance
Regards Rob Northall
Admin @ Shame Of Ireland
If #Redress was JUST there would be no Need for #StatutoryFundBill please STOP this Further Abuse?
Congregation Of Religious Ireland CORI Didn’t Pay Their Bill For #Redress What Chance #StatutoryFundBill
If you are in Contact with ANY Group, Please Contact them and Ask them what they are doing and where they Stand?
Please Post ANY Replies Here for All To See?
Please Refrain from Attacking Individual Group Leaders Here or Posting Comments that do not contain information Received from the Groups themselves?
Please Remember that although you may Disagree with What the Groups are Doing; "Leaders" are merely Representatives.
Discussing Whether or Not they Have a Mandate can be discussed @
I have just sent a comment not sure if it arrived.
Kathleen O'Malley. "Childhood Interrupted".
Where did you send the Comment??
I did get a Courteous Reply From Christopher Heaphy
It was Sent: 09 July 2012 08:52 AM
and States it is
Strictly Private and Confidential. Not for Publication.
When I sent the Email to the Group Leaders I also sent the Following to All.
If you are on Twitter you Can Copy and paste each Comment from TD's
I Tweeted these over a Month Ago and will retweet them after you.
From: Rob. Northall [mailto:email@example.com]
Sent: 08 July 2012 07:52 PM
Subject: FW: What TD's Said on the First Reading of the Statutory Fund Bill
What TD's Said on the First Reading of the Statutory Fund Bill
Bellow are what some TD’s Said at the first Reading of the Statutory Fund Bill
I hope you find their Comments of Interest?
@MaryLouMcDonald “@MrPaddyDoyle noted vast majority of former residents posting comments on his website opposed to #StatutoryFundBill”
@MaryLouMcDonald Said “Those who have not received redress to date will be blocked from accessing #StatutoryFundBill”
@MaryLouMcDonald on #StatutoryFundBill “Consideration must be given to former residents who believe money should be paid to survivors”
@MaryLouMcDonald said “many services already available as a matter of right, meaning benefits of #StatutoryFundBill will be minimal.”
@MaryLouMcDonald said “Children of survivors will be excluded from services provided for in #StatutoryFundBill. This is a mistake.”
Sandra McLellan TD said “#StatutoryFundBill has serious shortcomings”
Sandra McLellan TD “The fear for many is the bureaucracy surrounding the #StatutoryFundBill will become more important than the survivors.”
@JoanCollinsTD “staff of the Education Finance Board is to move to the statutory fund and will be paid there from #StatutoryFundBill.”
@JoanCollinsTD “Moreover, their pensions (staff of the Education Finance Board) will be paid from #StatutoryFundBill
@JoanCollinsTD said “board members will receive expenses, to which they are entitled, I note they will be drawn from #StatutoryFundBill”
@JoanCollinsTD “salary and pension of the chief executive officer to be paid out of #StatutoryFundBill”
@JoanCollinsTD said “appeals officer will be paid from #StatutoryFundBill, as will the staff he or she takes on”
@JoanCollinsTD said “any committees that are established will have their expenses and allowances paid for from #StatutoryFundBill”
@JoanCollinsTD said “#StatutoryFundBill has the potential to become a bureaucratic quango”
@JoanCollinsTD said “#StatutoryFundBill does not address the needs of the survivors”
@JoanCollinsTD said “I believe that 99% of #StatutoryFundBill must be given to survivors”
@JoanCollinsTD said “families are being excluded from access to the #StatutoryFundBill”
@JohnHalligan said “#StatutoryFundBill will not cater adequately for the needs of children and grandchildren”
@RBoydBarrett said “Nothing we or this #StatutoryFundBill can do can ever fully compensate people for the suffering they endured.”
@RBoydBarrett said “When I asked them (Survivors) if they believed #StatutoryFundBill drafted should be scrapped, they said it should!”
@wuagireland said “ #StatutoryFundBill Section 9 seems to suggest there will be means testing”
@wuagireland said “#StatutoryFundBill shall have regard to take account of the individual circumstances, including personal and financial”
@wuagireland said “children and grandchildren should be considered in regard to the eligibility criteria.” re #StatutoryFundBill
This is the Reply from John Kelly
From: irishsoca [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: 09 July 2012 05:13 PM
To: Rob. Northall
Subject: Re: Your Current Position on the Statutory Trust Fund
I answer to your question " let me know your Groups Current Position on the Statutory Trust Fund?", the fact is, Irish SOCA is opposed the Statutory Trust Fund as it's presently been presented to the Dail. We have very serious concerns with many elements of the Bill, we feel the Trust Fund as it's presently been presented to the Dail will become a been feast for civil servants, moreover, we feel, survivors will benefit very little from applying to this fund, in fact, we believe survivors are more likely to experience further trauma as a result of the conditions that is been proposed for the criteria laid down. Irish SOCA has raised our objections, observations & concerns with politicians from all parties in the Dail, in fact, the concerns raised in the Dail by certain T.D's in the Dail that you mentioned in your last e-mail, are the same objections, observations & concerns that Irish SOCA has regards the Trust Fund, the reason these particular questions were raised in the Dail in the first place, is because the likes of Irish SOCA held many meeting with those particular politicians that you mentioned, we also left them with written submissions of our objections, observations & concerns.
I hope this answers you question
This is the Reply from Michael Walsh
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Michael Walsh (Chairperson) a href="mailto:email@example.com" target="_blank">firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
Thank you for the information regarding the stages of the Bills reading. However, we were at these stages and listened with interest to all of the contributions by all of the sides.
You have asked me a question in relation to' Right of Places Second Chance's current position regarding this bill. OK, Robert I will endeavour to explain our position in two parts (1) and (2)
(1) Our position regarding the Trust Fund has been to oppose it and demand that all monies be given to survivors as just and fair redress for all our suffering. Full stop. This was the views of all our members and all those who we sought a response from. This was reflected in my signing of the petition on your site and in our submissions to Minister R Quinn in government buildings and is in the minutes of that meeting (On Public Record).
One of the reasons for this stance was that this 110 million, we believed, was given to us as part payment by the religious orders as redress, but the only dispute was whether it was to be as a fund or should be given to us directly and we should have a say in how it should be given out - because we were the right full recipients of this money. We believed it to be OUR money. On investigation from a legal and practical point we discovered that:
(a) We did not have a legal leg to stand on to demand that this money be given to us and
(b) The Religious Orders themselves gave confusing and contradictory instructions on how this fund was to be distributed! and
(c) So far there is only 20 million released to the Government - in fact they are not under any legal obligation to make any contribution if they so wish! and
(d) The Government have made it clear that they intend to pass this bill and no amount of indignation or threats or sense of outrage is going to make a blind bit of difference to them.
So why is the Government taking this position? They believe it is the best and right thing to do for survivors: And remember this - It is NOT our money! It is the Government's money to do as they will with it. These are the facts as we understand them and consequently armed with this information our current position has changed and it is this..
(2) In our Annual Report last year we had some 5,393 contacts to our offices,and the main areas of concern for Survivors were in housing, welfare, social supports AND in trust fund inquiries. Five hundred survivors requested information on accessing this fund.
So our changed position is to enable all those that seek help to access this fund we will help. That's our position.
Being outraged, angry, and opposed to the present reality will not change that. If Survivors wish to carry on in opposition then that is their choice, however as we have met senior politicians and department representatives who unequivocally state the Governments stance and legal advice, we had two choices. These were to blindly oppose the Trust Fund (knowing we cannot change it, as per points above) or offer our suggestions to enhance the Fund and we chose the latter. Knowing what we do know and having a greater understanding of the zero possibility the Trust Fund has of being rejected, we decided not to lead Survivors "up a garden Path", by saying we are against it (when we are aware of how unsuccessful this opposition will be) as we feel this would be disingenuous to Survivors.
I only wish to bring clarity and understanding to the debate.
Chairman/Director Right of Place Second Chance
I would like to commend you for your perseverance in working relentlessly on The Shame of Ireland page.
The Survivors were well and truly sent marching up the Redress path by the Group Leaders. So what is different now ? perhaps more deceit'
I refrained from commenting on this page some time ago, due to the fact that Survivors were attacking each other. By that I do not include the Group Leaders. they deserved all they got and continue to get. Squabbling amongst ourselves will not achieve anything other than for the opportunists who will make hay whist the sun shines.
remember United we Stand Divided we Fall.
Kathleen O'Malley. "Childhood Interrupted".
Just Popped into my Mail Box REad it Quickly and Posted it Here for your attention
From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: 10 July 2012 12:42 PM
To: Rob. Northall
Subject: Re: Your Current Position on the Statutory Trust Fund
Great to hear from you and I hope all is well with you and yours and of course well done for keeping up the pressure on State etc on the Shame of Ireland Site. As you are well aware I have constantly recommended your Site to our Survivor Members of our Company and I will continue to do this as it certainly gives a voice to Genuine Survivors and hopefully more of our Members will join it in the near future which will assist us all in getting the truth out in the open finally.
Many thanks also for requesting that I advise you and your Members on where Munster Survivors Support Services Ltd (The Company) stand on the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Bill, currently before the Dail. I am delighted with this opportunity to answer your questions and of course those of your Members and most definitely you have my full permission to post this reply on the Shame of Ireland Site.
Firstly let me clearly state that the Board, Committees, Representatives and Members of MSSS Ltd are completely against this so called Trust Fund and als against the proposed Monument as we believe they are both ill conceived ideas by Mr. Quinn and an absolute insult to Survivors, on his arrogance in putting the Trust Fund Bill forward he should be called on to resign in disgrace for grabbing what should be for Survivors, especially as it was his very own Department who first criminalised us Survivors when they took us into care and this makes them criminals in many of us Survivors eyes. MSSS Ltd has consistently, since this Fund was first conceived, very clearly stated it's objections to it and we and our Members will continue to fight this Fund even if it is passed into law by the Dail, our intentions are to challenge it in every Court both in Ireland or in Europe once the Members want this to happen and we call on all Survivors to join us and assist in this long fight we have ahead. When the Minister met the So Called Leadrers of the Groups last year MSSS Ltd were not allowed attend, however we threatened the Dept of Education with High Court action for discriminating against us and we then within a week met 3 Senior members of the Ministers staff, what a waste of time this meeting was as we were not listened to at all and left after 2 hours knowing that these People and the Minister had already clearly set their agenda and would not budge.
Over the past 12 months+ we have sent out over 3,ooo letters and E.mails to our Members, Members of both the Dail and Seanad with very few replies from those in the Oireachtas even with their free postage etc. WE ahve lobbied many Politicians around the country demanding that they hear the voices of the Survivors and we continues to do this. WE recently spent 2 days at the Sinn Fein Ard Dheis in Killarney where we spoke to all their TD's and I do firly believe that they do support our cause, on this occasion also we got to speak to a leader from the ANC and also from the Plo who were very sympathetic to our cause having suffered themselves and perhaps this will get it on an International Stage also. WE have also attended the Dail on a few occasions lobbying politicians and most recently we in conjunction with Sean Crowe of Sinn Feain hosted a briefing for all politicians in a meeting room in the Dail, this was quite sucessful even though there was not a huge attendance of TD's/Senators but we gave out a very clear message of what Survivors though of Quinn's Fund/Folly. We also recently picketed the Dept of Education Offices here in Cork and one of our Board went in to inform them of the picket and they immediately rang Marlborough St in Dublin, so it was well noted where we stood on Quinn's Folly. WE have also and still are holding meetings with the Religious Orders and Church Leaders on this issue and clearly pointing out that Survivors do not want this Fund and any Reparation Monies etc from them should only be handed directly over to the Survivors themselves, we have more meetings planned on this also. MSSS Ltd is not surprised with the stpid reply that you received from Christine Buckley of Ashling as she clearly thanked the Minister for the Fund at the meeting I referred to above in the very first line of her speech at this meeting, this is available in the Minutes of the Meeting on the Dept of Ed Web Site. Aisling, Right of Place Second Chance, VOTES and Right to Peace are very clearly in favour of the fund and are quite prepared to sell out all Survivor with the hope of getting Funding from this Trust Fund for their expenses/Salaries and so that they can continue to Mis-represent us Survivors as they have done so much in the past, they are Traitors to Genuine Survivors. What other Groups may be doing should hopefully become apparent after you have now given them the opportunity to state where they stand and I await their replies with deep interest. May I at this point congratulate you Rob and Shame of Ireland for maintaining your strong stance in objecting to this Fund and keep it up as we are not beaten yet, MSSS Ltd will be delighted to assist you in anyway possible on this vital issue for Survivors.
Rob you also ask in what way can your Members or indeed any Survivor help us in continuing our fight against this fund, well they can Join ou Company and if they do this does not stop them being members of your Site or indeed any other Group who genuinely are against this Fund or they can contact us and support any protests or lobbying we are arranging or they are most welcome to our General Meetings when they are held as any Survivor is whether a Member or not. Our E.Mail is email@example.com our phones are 00 353 21-4359137, (+353) 087-0516070 for direct contact to me or our PRO/Director on (+353) 086-3473583 and we will advise them of what is coming up or listen to any ideas that Survivors have.
Rob I hope that this answers for you and your Members and all Survivors where exactly MSSS Ltd stand on both the Fund and Monument and our stance will not change unless a Clear Majority of our Members/Survivors tell us otherwise as our Company is run without funding and all amjor decesions must be taken by all Members as the Board is only there to manage the day to day running of the Company and to support all Surviors in meeting any needs they may have, we are totally democratic and have a strict rule of "no casting vote by a chair" which gives the decesions back to the Members at all times. I apologise for the length of this statement but to fully answer you and your Members/Survivors takes up a lot of space and even with this I have only briefly outlined what MSSS Ltd are doing and undeed have done on the important issues for Survivors. I will close for now and please do not hesitate to contact me should you need any thing further or if you have other queries and I will do my best to assist in any way possible. I look forward to seeing this reply and any others on the Shame of Ireland Site and may I also take this opportunity to wish you, Your Member and all Survivors our best wishes for our future and may we all receive our just rewards for the pain of the past in the near future without further delay by those who would wish to prolong our abuse.
Chairman of MSSS Ltd.
well once again another group of people that are unknown to many of us. also mr walshs ideas are the same. he reminds us that its the government who decide. Well thay are the same people who when hearing of abuse in the institutions turned a blind eye and a deaf ear. now thay pretend to know what should be done . whiether we like it or not. since thay all claim to care about others how come things have come to this. leaders so called spend a lot of time criticing other leaders well its just not working. the people who were in industriel schools are over 60. some turned into childrens homes. its not the same thing. Since so many of us have not benefited from the present fund i find it really strange that leaders have such a good opinion of the work thay do now. as there are an awfull lot of survivers completly left aside. its said that family members benefit but thats unfair too. it leaves others totally alone. a pension for the industriel school workers would be fairer. as we dident get a chance to learn..
Hi Robert,Just a quick observation to your Request to Group Leaders for their response to where they stand,and the
decisions regarding ''Acceptance or not Of Staturtory Fund And Monuement'',I Understood by Your Request,that all replys
would be postad up on Web site for All to see (No Secrecy).But It Appears That ''Christopher Heaphy Of V.O.T E.S.The
Chairman,Has Not Got The Courage Of His Convictions,and the backing of the membership,
(If He Has Membership).he would then and should Be Willing To ''State Publicly'',Where His So Called Group stand on this
Vital Issue Of A Fund and Monuemont,And Not Send You Robert,an answer NOT FOR PUBLICATION,The Question? Must Be Asked,Why Is he Being So Secretive,When Other ''Leaders'' of ''Groups'',Have no Problem Stating Their Case,
And Their Stance On This Very Important Issue,Both Openly And Honestly,Again I Pose The Question?.
What Has ''Christopher Heaphy'',And V.O.T.E.S.Got To ''HIDE'' FROM all Of Us ''OTHER SURVIVORS''. I Also Note
You Got A ''COURTEOUS REPLY''.
''REBEL WITH A CAUSE''.
No Reply to me as yet from Mick Waters -
However this was sent to another Member who forwarded it to me
The SatutoryTrust Bill 2012 has passed through the Select Committee Stage on Thursday 28 June 2012 and is now at the Report Stage which is to be debate in the Irish Dail on 17/18 July 2012. It will then be passed over to the Irish Senate for debate and for then be presented to the President of Ireland Michael D.Higgins to sign into law and be placed on the Statute Book. The draw back is that it will not make the Senate until September at the earliest because the Senate closes on 19 July for the Summer break. I know this will upset all as we expected the Bill to pass through all statges by the time.
Sorry that the news is not great.
am trying to understand so can anyone tell me if christopher heapy and mossie are in the same group . if its m christopher heapy who spoke in a church about atonment well its the first time i have heard about the group called v.o.t.e.s.. would it be possable to name the groups as many of us dont know anything about them. it might be familier to those in ireland but not to the others in other countrys. if the names and the group names were together it would be easier to understand. there is also a project about doing up a building to house some. this is Philis morgans project. something about preserving a kind of grotte with a statue on it. a religous one of course. o it might be sally mulready.but old run down places like that will take a good slice of the fund.none of these things are really of use but we live in a time when we all suffer because of the money crises so its real live issues that matter to all.bills to pay .too old for jobs. not enough space. expences such as phone bills take a lot out of an old age pension. so english lessons or holidays or a mouthpiece are really not needed or asked fo. perhaps the man who thanked mr quinn would let us know what he is offering out of this fund.